#914 Boat People

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Reuters DOW 914 Boat people

Wed913-AC-Jay Byron next Wed915Margo.

Judith Patterson

Wednesday-Night.com
Salon Magazine vol 18

September 8, 1999

Wednesday Night #914

September 8, 1999

THE INVITATION

DR. JUDITH PATTERSON & Diana Thénaud

FOR TONIGHT'S TOPIC WE ARE INDEBTED TO DR. JUDITH PATTERSON FOR THE SUGGESTION THAT IT IS TIME TO LOOK AT THE PROBLEMS ARISING FROM THE RECENT ARRIVALS OF THE CHINESE "BOAT PEOPLE" ON THE WEST COAST AND THE IMPLICATIONS FOR OUR SOCIETY AS WELL AS FOR OUR LAWS.

IN HER NOTE TO US ON THE SUBJECT, SHE REFERS TO JEAN RISPAIL'S BOOK "IN THE CAMP OF THE SAINTS" AND WONDERS IF THIS IS HAPPENING NOW.

WITH JUDITH'S FINE MIND TO LEAD US ON THIS TOPIC, WE SHOULD HAVE AN EXCELLENT DEBATE.PLEASE COME WITH YOUR WISDOM.

September 12, 1999 live from Vancouver
"What should be the response to the boatloads of people that are landing on the West Coast of Canada?"

realaudio

introduction

guests

listener mail

This special broadcast was videotaped by CBC TV's The National Magazine and later broadcast in an edited version. See the transcript and photos of this TV broadcast.

Guest host Elizabeth Gray's introduction to the August 15, 1999 program: "What should Canada do with the Chinese boat people?"

RON MEISELS WRITES
"Given that the market is at a cross-road (at least in my opinion), I would be delighted to give a report tomorrow night.

Just say the word, oh master of all wednesdays." MP> WE AWAIT RON'S REPORT WITH BATED (OR IS THAT BETA-ED) BREATH.

DAVID AND DIANA NICHOLSON

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914

THE SALON

John C. & Lucy Kroha

New Faces

Dr. Lucy Kroha introduced Sheila Horn-Bisaillon with a brief sketch of her impressive background in medical issues.

Gerald Ratzer presented a new colleague from Computer Sciences at McGill, Karel Driesen, representing the counter-flow of brains. After six interviews in the States, he opted for McGill's offer and is here on a 3-year contract.

Gregory Saumier-Finch, Vice President of Public Technologies returned after a long absence.

As illustrated by the above, the gathering this evening included a group of experts in widely diverse fields. Topics debated included the dilemma of the "Boat People", the Brain Drain, real or imagined, speculation on the role of the newly appointed Governor General, the scrapping of the Snowbirds in the context of the future of the military, as well as the ubiquitous financial analysis.

Gregory Saumier-Finch & Me Marie Cormier

The Brain Drain:

Despite denials of the Government of Canada, the brain drain is real. The Conference Board of Canada's analysis is more relevant because it covers a one year period rather than a long term retrospective analysis. It was also noted that recent changes in the U.S. relaxing visa requirements and enabling individuals to continue from year to year on one-year visas have changed the picture.

Warren Allmand

The Canadian government only recognizes permanent moves (and is thus correct in its statements that fewer Canadians are moving permanently to the U.S. than 20 years ago). But the lure of higher salaries, lower taxes and less expensive equipment is irresistible for many of the brightest (predominantly anglophone) lights.

The obvious reasons for this phenomenon include:

• Canada has chosen to select a lower dollar in order to stimulate exports.
• Salaries in the United States are much higher than in Canada, while taxes are lower.
• When Canadian companies downsize, skilled technical people seek employment in the United States where it is much more available and financially attractive than it is in Canada.
• With the increasing percentage of students studying such disciplines as Law, U.S. universities are having trouble filling their engineering schools with Americans.

On the positive side

Me Marie Cormier & Prof Deutsch

• The quality of life is much better here, with leisure activities providing a balance to the work-dominated life in high-tech industries in the United States.
• Although there is a brain drain from Canada, there is an inflow of qualified Asians, Europeans and Latin Americans, however many of these professionals are under-employed because of turf jealously guarded by professional associations and unions.
• If you want to do Research and Development, the odds are that Québec is the best place to do it by virtue of generous provincial and federal subsidies. The cost of U.S.-made equipment must be factored in,nevertheless.

The history of the Avro Arrow indicates that when the need arises, we produce or import an adequate number of specialists. Our aircraft industry has flourished despite the flood of aircraft technical specialists that evaporated following the collapse of the Avro project.

Governor General Adrienne Clarkson:

There were good, even excellent, reviews around the room. All guests were enthusiastic about the appointment, but wondered about the influence of her husband, John Ralston Saul. There was general agreement that there would be no effect perceived in Québec, where most residents see the position of Governor General as an anachronism - "do we really need a representative of the Queen?" The same may be true elsewhere in Canada as well.

The proposed elimination of the Snowbirds:

Me Alan Mass

This is neither a new nor a local phenomenon. In order to stay in business, the military has had to cannibalize itself. This has occurred throughout the world, probably starting with the transformation of the beautifully carved Lee-Enfield and Remington rifles to the ugly black metal versions of to-day. Military hardware is expensive, and military budgets are squeezed. Ceremonial activities of the military are being eliminated in many parts of the world including the United States and Great Britain in order to save money. Regiments are being disbanded and symbols eliminated. The move to cut out the Musical Ride was recounted.

The Stock Market:

The view of the bears is that price-earnings ratios are far too high, stock prices are being kept artificially high because of low interest rates, and that continually rising stock produce a bubble waiting to burst.

Starting in 1890 the number of people in the market increased constantly until 1929 when there were more sellers than buyers.

The view of the bulls is that demographics favour a continually rising stock market which began in 1974 and will continue to 2006 or 2008. In the light of balanced government budgets and paydown of the debt, as well as an increasing number of investors, we have to use other yardsticks than p/e ratios, which now have much less significance.

Last October saw a major low followed by a bull market which is currently taking a rest. Historically, September and October are weak months in the market. It may be time to take a breather and get into the market at the end of October this year. The market will be significantly higher in December and January 2000.

The Boat People:

Susan Eyton-Jones

On this topics there were opposing points of view.

Send them back to their country of origin. They are taking advantage of us by claiming refugee status in order to jump the queue so as to avoid the wait involved in legal immigration. Canadian law is clear. We should not allow it to be broken. At Heathrow Airport, people with inadequate documentation are not permitted to leave the aircraft. International airlines are supposed to verify boarding passengers' documentation and refuse to board "inadmissable" passengers. Instead of accepting the arrival of refugees as a fact of life, we should invest more money in economic development and democratization in underdeveloped countries.

Canada is bound by international convention to accept bona fide refugees. To send potential refugees back to danger in their homeland would be totally contrary to Canadian values. We have a history of refugee reciprocity. In the final analysis, after investigation, Canada rejects more refugees than we accept.

The balanced view is that Canada is a country of immigrants. Except for the western world, people do not normally leave their homes unless they have to. Even at the time of confederation, the founding colonies were inhabited by oppressed people. The natives were oppressed by the immigrants, the French did not leave their homeland happily, nor did immigrants from Scotland, Ireland, Eastern Europe or Asia. These people and their descendants built the Canada we know today.

Antal Deutsh & Me John Ciaccia

Until World War I, Canada had a policy of immigration by self-selection, that is an open policy. Thereafter, the policy changed to immigration by legislation. There appears to be no proof that this has been a superior method. We are paying the price of a global world. Discrepancies in income and employment possibilities, political distress, overpopulation of third world countries all contribute to the migration, as does increased awareness made possible by television. This is the price of progress. Canada's immigration quota is very seldom if ever achieved. If the number of refugees accepted is included in immigration figures, the quota is still not exceeded.

Me Marie Cormie

Under current Canadian practice, reviewing the case of illegal immigrants claiming refugee status currently takes from two to three years. During this time, many are integrated, some have had children and it seems unfair to send these people back to their homeland. A far better solution would be the rapid but fair review of all claims.

It would also be instructive to review the effects of the legislation which requires sizeable deposits from legal immigrants for each member of the family. These deposits represent prohibitively high costs for many immigrants. Does this influence the increasing number of "illegals"

Quotes of the evening

"Perhaps a more appropriate symbol of Canada (instead of the Snowbirds) would be a squadron of stealth aircraft, invisible and inaudible."

"The rising stock markets are like snow accumulating before the avalanche."

Herbert Bercovitz

Notes by Herbert Bercovitz
Edited by Diana Thébaud Nicholson

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JAY BRYAN

SEPTEMBER 1st, #913 Onex Robin Wohnsigl .. despite Québec's rejection of his "One City One Island" , Canada has 3 billion trade surplus.

Robin Wohnsigl VP AC

AC + CP Air August 25, 1999 #912 T/O Air Canada and Canadian by ONEX. with Robin Wohnsigl vp ... Eaton's ? Claude Gagné, introduced by Guy Stanley. .. Alex's visitor, Gregory Beachman .. Brian Morel intro Achille Michaud Gerry Schwartz Onex Pres

9/10/99

Hi David & Diana,

Karel Driesen

just a little mail to thank you for letting me misbehave on your wonderful wednesday evening chatting party i didn't realize you have been doing this already 914 times

hope to be there for the 1Kth (and some before then) thanks,

Karel Driesen

School of Computer Science, McGill University
McConnell Eng. Bldg., #327, 3480 University Street
tel: 1-514-398-4258, n fax: 398-3883, cel: 402-1208
www.cs.mcgill.ca/~karel

Too much of a good thing will just have to do.

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Andrew de Courcy-Ireland for the comments in theStk Forecasts page
or Stk forecast Banks

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Ron Walker at Couch

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Wed913-AC-Jay Byron next Wed915Margo.

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